Question and Answer about Dhamma
BY PHRA ACHARN THATE DESARANSI : WAT HIN MAAK PENG NONGKHAI, THAILAND. CONVERSATIONS BETWEEN PHRA ACHARN THATE DESARANSI AND PHRA BUNTA PASANNACITTO
R E S U M E : PHRA BUNTA PASANNACITTO
Native of the province of Maha Sarakham, he sojourned in many places to earn a living. He had just barely enough knowledge to read and write. Once he met a monk who practised meditation. After some conversation with the monk, he was inspired with faith. So he left the life of laity and entered monkhood under the supervision of an Upajjhaya named Phra Thep bundit of Wat Sri Muang, Nong Khai Province. That was at the age of forty-six. He spent one Vassa season with the Upajjhaya. After that he took leave of him and spent the following Vassa seasons under the supervision of Phra Acharn Thate at Wat Hin Maak Peng in the district of Sri Chiangmai. He has attended to the practice of meditation regularly. Upon some doubts pertaining to the practice, he asked Phra Acharn the following questions:
QUESTION 11 : How does Samadhi become deteriorated? How does Panna become degenerated, so that the heart is darkened?
ANSWER 11 : If the heart of Samadhi of Panna, any of these three undergoes deterioration, it means the rest does also suffer, because they are interrelated. In fact, the heart cannot suffer from dererioration: the heart is just the one who thinks, who ponders, and who feels. When we say it deteriorates, we mean it is thinking of defiling matters, so that it becomes disheartened, arid, and uneasy, Here we say, the heart degenerates, or the Citta drops. You may coin a word or phrase in whichever way you like. However, the Citta still functions in its usual manner. If the Citta is firm and concentrates on one particular object (Ekaggata), which is called Samadhi, the Citta then brightens and rejoices. When it turns to contemplate on anything, it is capable of seeing brilliantly, minutely, and clearly. This is what we call the arising of Panna. In conclusion, we may say that when the Citta attains Samadhi upon being firm on one particular object of concentration, it is capable of further contemplation with uninhibition. This is to say the Citta, the Samadhi, and the Panna are well developed, whereas the contrary will be considered a deterioration. If there is a question as to the cause of deterioration, the answer must be that deterioration is caused by slackness of attention. Having attained that state of Samadhi, one becomes imprudent, while at the same time, one is not yet proficient is the matter of Citta, Samadhi, and Panna.
ANSWER 12 : In this Loka, there is no Dhamma : there is only Loka. What is Loka but a composition of creatures, or, of the physical and mental aggregates. When we were born, the world had already existed. Since we are still living, we ourselves constitute Loka. What is Loka? It is moving, rotating, and changing; it is not constant. Neither is it firm, nor lasting. This is to say: Loka is in this condition forever. So the Teacher explicates the topic of Loka Dhamma. Loka Dhamma consists of happiness and unhappiness, praise and abuse, gain and loss, and honour and dishonour. These are Loka Dhamma. They signify Loka and are thereby referred to as the dhamma of Loka. So it is difficult to make a just distinction between Loka and Dhamma. Whatever is Dhamma is Loka. Whatever is Loka is Dhamma. I have said in the beginning that this Loka has no Dhamma : there is only Loka. If there were to be Dhamma at all, there would be that Loka Dhamma. This is why the Teacher teaches of Loka Dhamma. Once we understand Loka Dhamma, we shall not become entangled. Neither shall we become attached nor infatuated. In this way, we shall be considered above the mundane. The Buddha became enlightened in nothing but Loka. Dhamma This is not the Dhamma above or beyond us. When the Buddha became enlightened in the truth of its condition, he sew its harm. So he became bored and loosened himself of attachment. He was no more infatuated. The heart became clean and brightened, standing above the mundane, higher than Loka, at which stage he attained the Lokuttara Dhamma. And you asked what shall you do. The answer is, if one contemplates the Loka in such a way that one sees Loka as the physical and mental self, while with misunderstanding one becomes attached to it, one is bound to suffer. If one considers the physical and mental entity as it truly is, in the same way as one considers the Loka, one will not be lost in the wrong view and will not bicome attached to it. One will certainly loosen oneself and lay down the burden. This is agreeable with the Dhamma and leads not to suffering. When one contemplates and sees thoroughly and clearly the whole truth, one will not make a fool of oneself by becoming attached to the physical or mental entity, for it will only bring about suffering naturally.
QUESTION 13 : At one time when I contemplated the Sankhara or the mental formations, I saw it clearly that it was Anatta there was no self, no "I" nor "they" I saw it so clearly that I became bored and wished to contemplate it no more. But, later when I tried to contemplate it again, I couldn't see it as clearly. What's the cause of this change?
ANSWER 13 : Most of those who practise Samadhi have that kind of experience. In the end they will turn out a failure. They are not capable of maintaining the Samadhi state. This is because the way they see it is not coustituted by Panna Vipassana or the wisdom that comes right out of Magga (the Righteous Eightfold Path). That seeing on the contrary, comes from Jhana. It might give one a clear vision, so that one becomes bored and all, but it is the kind of boredom that is mixed with anger (Dosa), void of rational basis. Therefore, the heart turns toward unrest and develops more of the mental depression and pathos. To make it short, I shall conclude it this way: the one, who sees that the body is Anatta, may come to hold on to one's own view so that the view becomes crystallized into an Atta(that is, so possessed that it has become implanted into the self). This means that when one does not rationalize the constituent of Anatta, one's knowledge will be limited. And one will eventually become bored with the usual contemplation of the subject. This means the heart is beginning to deteriorate from the stage of Dhamma it once reaches. Later as soon as one realizes that one is no more capable of a clear perception ad one used to get, one finds that the past experiences have also become hazy. Therefore, meditation students should take this into consideration and should be very cautious. Some misunderstand that they have come to the end of the mundane life. Why is it so? Because even if they have contemplated Anatta in everything, they have unwittingly fostered it into an Atta.
QUESTION 14 :To say that one is void of Kilesa or defilements, does this mean that the Kilesa is complete gone, no more hanging around? Or, does it mean that the Kilesa is still there, but unable to difile the heart, due to the stronger power of Sati (awareness), samadhi (calm), and Panna (wisdom)?
ANSWER 14 : The various mental defilements are called Kilesa. The sources of Kilesa are the six senses, namely the eyes, for example. To say that one is void of Kilesa means exactly what it says literally. The teacher does not say that the Kilesa is completely gone with nothing left as when the fire has burned down the straws. The Teacher simply means that the Citta is not being entangled in the snare of the various mental holders, which are going to stain and stifle the heart. Of course, the Kilesa is still the Kilesa, just as it naturally is. In a certain expression, it is retranslated as one who is far from all Kilesa. I myself do not know how far gone is the Citta from the Kilesa: and, how can it turn itself afar? This is only an idiom. As a matter of fact, it probably means that no more does one take hold of the Kilesa. No more does one defile one's heart. All this is the result of the power of Sati, Samadhi, and Panna, which have been efficiently developed. Whatever is said is interesting all right. Is there anything else you would like to speak of or discuss. Let me hear of your views on your past experiences, or your views on your meditation practice.
QUESTION 15 : May I have permission. When we suffer a great deal from physical illness, should we try to maintain our calm, or should we contemplate the feeling of suffering and fight it off?
ANSWER 15 : Either way will do. That is, some who suffer from the pain severer than they can bear will need to fight it off by calm, that is, leaving everything completely out of the consciousness. This is possible. That is , they turn toward calm and free the heart so that it reaches the state of calm fully, becoming altogether unconscious. They can drop themselves in that state for an hour or two. And as soon as the heart withdraws, whatever illness or pain may absolutely disappear. There are many cases like this. Those who use this method, of course, is not going through a hardship or adventure. They merely seek an asylum. As if running into a safety ditch upon an air raid. When the bombers come, they are afraid, so they run into the ditch. Anyway, those who can use this method must be very keen indeed. Their heart must be brave in order to succeed. Yet, the success is not always achieved. I knew of a Chinese man who liked to follow this method. He belonged to a very old generation that still preferred wearing pigtails. This Chinese man practised meditationby himself and was capable of attaining calm all along. He did not have to eat ordinary food. He usually kept a bag of fried rice with him. Whenever he was hungry, he would hold the dried ricer in his mouth and continued to sit in meditation. A superior monk observed this and made a remark to him, " Uncle, is this comfortable?" "Yes, it is comfortable even without food." The Chinese man also lived in the midst of wild animals in the forest. Even tigers came to bear children in the same cave he lived. They lived in the same place and had no fear. This type of person had a great deal of loving-kindness, loving kindness for animals. He had sympathy for them, identifying himself with those animals. Nevertheless, right before his last breath, as someone told me, I did not see him myself, this Chinese man became quite restless. He became unconscious of what he was doing. Another story, there was a monk, who was the same way, At the time he was dying in his cell, he was in a terrible commotion. He could not hear his brother's call. They had to break in the door. Finally, he died without an awareness. These are examples of the ones who practised only for the sake of calm. There is no wisdom involved. Principally speaking, it is the practice in which one dwells in the state of Jhana, of living in Jhana. This method may be useful, but only on some occasions. You cannot count on it seriously. That is, if you are going to be completely free from sufferings and their causes, you need wiscom. It is not possible to use calm by itself. As you see, calm is useful on occasions, but not all the time. Therefore, the best way is: When the feeling of suffering occurs, one should contemplate it in accordance with the method of Satipatthana (method of conducing consciousness), so that one is capable of perceiving it indifferently, without possissing such a feeling as part of the self. Having a clear preception on the basis of this justification, one will release oneself of possessiveness in the various physical and mental activities. At the same time, one will eventually acquire a kind if measurement of oneself. Since we are concerned with our physical and mental activities, we can see their various states, as they really are, we can see how much we can free ourselves of possessiveness. This is walking along the Path of Right eousness, which is considered Wipassana wisdom. It is very useful, to follow the righteous Eightfold path to face the problem and to contemplate it will contribute to wisdom which can make us capable of freeing ourselves from attachment. This is why the best way is that after we have practised calm sufficiently, we should learn to contemplate problems. It will be very good to be able to make use of both methods.
QUESTION 16 : To say that all Sankhara is suffering, does it mean that the Sankhara is suffering or the heart is suffering? And then what is it that does not suffer?
ANSWER 16 : There are two types of Sankhara: one is Rupa Sankhara (the physical) and the other is Nama-Sankhara(the heart). These two types of Sankhara by themselves do not suffer. When they say all Sankhara is suffering, they refer to that which is being taken hold as part of the self. On the other hand, those who attain Nirodha - Samapatti (absolute freedom from attachment to the Sankhara) do not body, does not suffer either. However, a living person, who is still attached to the body, does suffer. The Citta-Sankhara is that which makes up things. If it knows that this leads to sufferings, it will certainly refrain itself from doing it. But, if it does not know, it will continue to make up things endlessly. As a result, the attachment, which takes hold of the Sankhara and makes it part of the self, has to suffer. That which does not suffer is that which does not take hold of anything as part of the self.
QUESTION 17 : True happiness is to be free. Why don't people want to be free? True suffering is to be possessive. Why are people fond of possessiveness? If one is neither possessive nor free, what is he called?
ANSWER 17 : This is difficult to say because people are happy only on account of possessiveness. If the heart does not belong somewhere, it will be completely unhappy. Even those, who practise meditation and are attempting to free themselves from the bondage of the material and mental activities, find themselves letting go of one thing, while grabbing the next. This is because one takes hold of such thing as one's mental activity (i.e defilements). This is one's natural base. And one will never acquire happiness from detachment as long as one has not trained one's heart and body enough so as to attain the state of genuine calmness. As long as one does not perceive wrongness and suffering in one's possessiveness, one will not allow oneselfto let go of it. Therefore, the one who is wise and intelligent will not allow oneself to become attached or possessive. Nevertheless, one will consider things with caution. This is to say neither that one is entirely free, nor that one is completely possessive. There is no word coined for it.
QUESTION 18 : Nowadays people like to say that the time is over for the Way (Magga), the Goal (Phala), and Enlightenment (Nibbana). Now, if there are still people who are behaving and training themselves, and the Turth of Nature is still existing, is the time really over?
ANSWER 18 : Those who have never undergone mental training, generally rely on rationalization. Thus, to them the Way, the Goal, and Enlightenment are like fruits out of season. They understand that after such and such seasons, there will be no more mangoes and lamyai, However, as a matter of fact the Truth in the Buddha's Teachings exists in conjunction with the world. Those who see no Dhamma, such as those who make the above statement, actually have Dhamma in themselves, but they see it not. The Buddha was enlightened, not by perceiving the truth of anything Dhamma exists, cut people do not see it. This means, Dhamma is the Four Noble Truths. The Buddha points at the suffering which includes, for example, suffering of birth. He points at the causes, which include the three types of craving, namely, for example, sensual craving. These are genuine Dhamma. They are real and exist in each and everyone of us. But people do not see them. They do not understand them. In other words, they have not undergone sufficient mental training; they have not cleaned the heart enough so that they are able to reach the state of purity. That is why they cannot perceive those Noble Truths. Another point is that there is no absolute Dhamma. It is there only in relation to the world. This is the usual expression, meaning that everything exists in the world, belongs to the world: birth belongs to the world, so do aging, sickness, and death. Cravings, both the sensual craving and the craving to become, belong to the world. There is no absolute Dhamma existing by itself. Those who train themselves so that they perceive it means that their heart is Dhamma itself. The heart has become relieved of attachments. The heart reaches the state of calm and cool. Relieving itself from the entire world. So they begin to perceive the world as Dhamma. That is, they begin to see that everything is nature, natural as it is. So, they do not take hold of anything. This is why I say there is no absolute Dhamma; there is only the world. Whoever perceives the world as it is and refrains himself from getting attached, both he himself and the object from which he is detached become Dhamma. This is a reverse. It is an idiomatic expression. Both are right. At first you said absolute Dhamma exists. Actually the Way, the Goal, and Enlightenment are nothing but the one who has purified oneself with wisdom, who percieves the world as it is with wisdom without getting attached to the world. One may call this the Way, the Goal, and Enlightenment or whatever. The problem is only that one has degraded oneself from the Way, the Goal, and Enlightenment. That's all. And this is because one does not train oneself in that direction. The Buddha himself was enlightened of the Way, the Goal and Enlightenment, not from elsewhere. He die not bring them from any other sphere. Infinite knowledge is the true acquires this knowledge by himself, so his knowledge is called Sabbannuta nana. The later generation of disciples learn this from the Buddha's earlier disciples. How can one say that the Way and the Goal have degenerated? They are not degenerated. Many people today are afraid of that. They are afraid that the Teachings will decline from Thailand, being afraid that some political ideologies will tamper with them and destroy them. But truly the one who is so afraid does not realize that he himself is not able to live up even to the five precepts. There, the Buddha's Teachings in himself have deteriorated, isn't that right?.
Source : http://www.dhammathai.org/dhamma-eng/question-answer-dhamma-qa11-qa18.php
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